Luke 8:12 Closed Case Against Calvinism?
The following question arose from a call into the conversation between Brother Body and Dustin Seagers in a debate on monergism vs synergism that aired on Gene’s Cooks Narrow Mind broadcast this past Tuesday night. (www.unchainedradio.com)
After listening to the mp3 on Wedesday, I posed the following for review in Gene’s forums.
The question was posed to Dustin, who was in affirmation of God’s acting alone (monergism) in the Salvation of sinners.
Here is the question posed by the caller:
“When someone is not regenerated and the Word of God is preached to him, do they have the ability to respond to that in a positive way?”
The answer given by Pastor Seagers was “no”.
The caller read the verse Luke 8:12
“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved."
and asked: “If somebody is in such a state of depravity that they would never respond positively to the Word, why would it be necessary for the enemy to come and take the word out of their heart, lest they should believe and be saved?.”
His point was; why would the devil have to take something that really wasn’t there since the hearer did not have the natural ability needed for the word to be in his heart.
In the callers view, the devil snatched away the word from the hearers' heart and since it was there to snatch, the hearer indeed had the ability to choose.
It was there, so he must have had the ability to do so, naturally.
Therefore, according to the caller, TULIP's "P" must go.
But I believe his understanding of the verse presents a major problem that can be seen with one question. My question from the above dialog would simply be:
If the devil has the ability to prevent salvation, why does he not prevent all salvation?
The way I see it, there are only three possibilities:
1) No salvation for any. This doesn’t hold water as the remainder of the passage explains otherwise.
2) Satan has motives unknown to us, stealing away the Word from some but not others, but this gives him sovereignty over mans salvation and must be rejected as well.
3) God prevents Satan from stealing the Word from the hearts of some, thereby bringing us back to a proper understanding of Biblical Christianity as God exercises His sovereign rite to bring in all those whom He has giving to the Son.
What do you think?
After listening to the mp3 on Wedesday, I posed the following for review in Gene’s forums.
The question was posed to Dustin, who was in affirmation of God’s acting alone (monergism) in the Salvation of sinners.
Here is the question posed by the caller:
“When someone is not regenerated and the Word of God is preached to him, do they have the ability to respond to that in a positive way?”
The answer given by Pastor Seagers was “no”.
The caller read the verse Luke 8:12
“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved."
and asked: “If somebody is in such a state of depravity that they would never respond positively to the Word, why would it be necessary for the enemy to come and take the word out of their heart, lest they should believe and be saved?.”
His point was; why would the devil have to take something that really wasn’t there since the hearer did not have the natural ability needed for the word to be in his heart.
In the callers view, the devil snatched away the word from the hearers' heart and since it was there to snatch, the hearer indeed had the ability to choose.
It was there, so he must have had the ability to do so, naturally.
Therefore, according to the caller, TULIP's "P" must go.
But I believe his understanding of the verse presents a major problem that can be seen with one question. My question from the above dialog would simply be:
If the devil has the ability to prevent salvation, why does he not prevent all salvation?
The way I see it, there are only three possibilities:
1) No salvation for any. This doesn’t hold water as the remainder of the passage explains otherwise.
2) Satan has motives unknown to us, stealing away the Word from some but not others, but this gives him sovereignty over mans salvation and must be rejected as well.
3) God prevents Satan from stealing the Word from the hearts of some, thereby bringing us back to a proper understanding of Biblical Christianity as God exercises His sovereign rite to bring in all those whom He has giving to the Son.
What do you think?
posted by Hank at 12:40 AM
4 Comments:
Hmm...I see this going in a 'Rev 20' type of direction :)
Good to see you blogging! Now maybe I understand a little more about where you're coming from.
To your question...
Obviously, Satan does not know who the elect are. Just as we evangelize every single human we can reach -without exception, Satan also attempts to wreck the preaching of God's word in every single human without exception.
The same question could be posed to the man: why doesn't Satan just give up on everything now since he knows he cannot win?
You answer that and you answer this question as well.
However, I'm not one to take this language as wooden literal (shocking I know!). I believe it is symbolic for how Satan has his way here on earth among the hearts of men. He is attempting to destroy all human life and keep them from the gospel, whether saved or unsaved.
But wow, for a guy who is bound and in a bottomless pit, he sure gets around a lot, huh? :)
SDG
Hi Nathan
Yes, I agree with your conclusions. I was mainly pointing out the problems that arise from a simplistic understanding of the parable. The caller who asked the question was certain it was enough to refute Sovereign Grace, all the while his missed the boat to the implications of his understanding. If you haven't got a chance to listen to the debate, it's worth the time spent as Pastor Dustin was very well versed and a pleasure to listen to.
As far as Satan goes, I agree with you he is very busy in the hearts of man, yet I am thankful that he is as well 'bound from deceiving the nations no more'! Other wise, we might be in trouble! ;)
Thanks for the comments! And have a great Lord's day with your church and family tomorrow!
Nathan,
Are you stirring up trouble over here concerning Rev. 20:)?? Just teasing you b rother!
Hank,
I vote for door number 3. Clearly Satan is an instrument in the hands of a sovereign God. We also must remember that the Word must be in conjunction with the Spirit of God in order to bring salvation. As our catechism states in the question regarding knowing that there is a God,
"The light of nature in man, and the works of God, plainly declares that there is a God; but his word and Spirit only, do effectually reveal him unto us for our salvation."
The Spirit of God must take the Word of God and make us alive to it through regeneration and then and only then is one truly brought to faith in Christ. Many hear the word of God, but never come to Christ because the Spirit has not worked in the hearers heart.
I agree with all the smart guys above.
I'd add that the preached word is the means God normally uses to bring about regeneration and faith in the elect. So, when God allows Satan to snatch that word away, or when He preaches in parables that are meant to conceal it, that is a token of His righteous judgment on the reprobate.
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